So, let’s move on and talk Brussels. You are very known in Brussels as an advocate for diversity, arguing that the decision-makers are not representing the diversity of Europe. Why is this the case?

Well, there is the literal fact that women and ethnic minorities are heavily underrepresented. There is extraordinary diversity in Brussels in the sense that it is a meeting place for people not only from the 28 EU Member States but from 200 countries. Now, basically, everyone has accepted that we need to do more on women. But while all the parties said we have to do this, doesn't mean it's going to happen. I still think we need to prepare for it being 12 out of 28 women Commissioners or so. But we are definitely going to get beyond 10. And that's a really good thing. I just think with all these discussions you have to push it. No one is going to give you something for free. 

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 "I just think with all these discussions you have to push it. No one is going to give you something for free." 

Do you think the age of old white men in Brussels is over?

I was really thinking this when I was coming to the interview this morning. I had to run off to the bank and there were a couple of Eurocrats. You could just tell these were men that had lived good lives, in a system where one is recruited and paid, and can never get fired. For the first decades, it was basically all men with women as secretaries. I have heard amazing women talk and just thought “Wow if you were joining the Commission now, you would not have been the Director General's assistant, you would've been the director or the director general yourself”. 

We have many women's initiatives like the Brussels Binder and various women's networks. Do you think this is sufficient or can we do something else to promote change? 

I think you now need the more senior people at the top and that's why I always keep talking about the Commissioners. You've got this bottom-up push that's clearly happening now. But you also need a bit of a crush from the top to make sure that it really happens. And I've been really pleased that so many of the male candidates are openly talking about it, like Manfred Weber, whatever his flaws and his faults are. He's being decent in this discussion and he's always engaged. And if he ends up becoming Commission president he's on record plenty of times, including an interview with me in April, that he will support 50 percent women -  a big change. That is not something you heard in the past. 

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"It's really hard to demonstrate a structural disadvantage if you're blind to race. People here don’t talk about it." 

You have argued in the past that the UK and the US have a more sophisticated discussion on diversity. How can continental Europe learn from Anglo-Saxon countries?

It's really hard to demonstrate a structural disadvantage if you're blind to race. People here don’t talk about it. At Politico, we did a series called ‘Brussels so white’ and wanted to do something where we basically measured how many non-white employees and Cabinet members there were. Our lawyer said we were not even allowed to ask the question. You cannot email people and ask them to identify as one race or another because, in the past, people who did that were probably trying to target the minority. The law is set up to protect the minority, but it makes it invisible at the same time. No one can truly understand the nature of the problems they might face if you don't recognize them as a community. You just say ‘Oh you're all French’ or ‘you're all Belgian’ and ‘Oh that's great if you live in Cologne’ but ‘it's not great if you live in Molenbeek’. We need to somehow face that reality. 

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"We make a lot of assumptions in our society about how people think and feel." 

How do we teach people to coexist?

I think you have to have actual interactions with people. I would criticize myself here where I was involved in helping reunite a Syrian family in Brussels. I was really proud to do that. And then I didn't really follow up enough. I didn't become that personal support network or friend. It's just about trying to be respectful of people who are different to you for whatever reason but actually engage with them, talk to someone in a shop or at your office. Make an effort if you see someone is just so obviously different from everyone else. You don't have to talk about it directly but you can just be a nice person to them. I would say make sure that you have a coffee with them once. Make sure that you know if you notice they're not invited to things like the after-work drinks, make sure they know they are invited. Don't assume. We make a lot of assumptions in our society about how people think and feel. So don't assume that they know everyone goes for drinks on a Thursday after work or something like that. 

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Let’s talk a bit more about yourself. What motivates you in life? 

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That's a tricky one. I think I'm motivated by happiness, fun, and excellence. So, other people might think I'm obsessed about work and things like that. And I definitely care about doing a good job. But I think as you get older you also become more conscious of what you've sacrificed in order to achieve something at work and you realize, at the end of the day, no one is going to remember that you stayed at the office till 10:00 p.m. Sometimes you just have to get things done and that's an important part of your identity for keeping a roof over your head.

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